..續本文上一頁that the deathless is synonymous with the end of clinging and grasping

　　AS: Non-attachment to mortal conditions.

　　RW: I find it more the case than the exception that when belonging to a group, there is a tendency to feel secure, and to condemn, belittle or speak condescendingly to those who do not share one”s own religious beliefs or philosophical dogma. I was quite concerned about these matters when I left the Centre in Switzerland... How does one overcome this feeling of separation, form versus the essence

　　 How can one be free from getting enmeshed in form, whether it be in a study or meditative environment

　　AS: Well, just be enlightened. It would solve all your problems.

　　RW: Thanks a lot.

　　AS: One has to make the best of all these things. Even here [at the Insight Meditation Society] the meditation is kind of spoon-fed. It is like sitting in a high chair and having your mommy come and dish it to you on a little plate. It is idealistic. For meditators there is hardly any friction; everything is secure and provided.

　　In places like Tharpa Choeling [the Tibetan Centre in Switzerland] there is more friction, much more to forgive, much more confusion to the mind. Chithurst is a good example of being neither the best nor the worst place. It is adequate. Some people will make use of it, some will not. I do not want it to be too perfect or ideal, because people need friction. Otherwise they become complacent and dull. One has to give people space to work through their biases and hang-ups.

　　In my own life I saw how I became attached to the teacher, the tradition and the rules. If one is serious and watching dukkha, then one begins to see that and let it go. That does not mean one has to throw away the tradition; it just means that one can be at ease with it.

　　I enjoy monasticism. I like being a monk. I think it is a very lovely way to live as a human being. But if it does not work anymore, when the time comes to end it -- it will end. That is it. It does not matter that much.

　　Yet there is no need to throw away the ordination either. I have grown because of it. I have not as yet seen a better way to live one”s life. So I stay with this one until it is time to change. When the time for change comes, it will have to come on its own. It is not up to me to decide, ”Well, I”m fed up with this. I”m going to try something else.”

　　One can see the whole tenor of the life of a monk is very good. It is harmless, it is honourable; it is useful in society too. I know how to use it. I can teach through this tradition. I can teach people how to use the tradition, which I think is a good thing to know how to use. One can learn how to use conventions instead of just rejecting them.

　　If I give you a knife, you can use it for good or bad. It is not the knife”s problem, is it

　　 If you use it to murder me, would you say, ”The knife is bad”

　　 The knife might be a very good knife, a well-made and useful tool. The same with the Theravada or Tibetan tradition; it is learning how to use them skilfully -- and that is up to you!

　　One has to recognise that Asian teachers come from a society (Tibet, for example) where everything is more or less taken for granted. They have been raised in a society that thinks and lives Buddhism. Whether they are devout or not does not make any difference. Nevertheless, it affects their whole outlook on themselves and the world. Whereas you come from a country which is materialistic, and where the values -- based on greed and competition, and trust and faith in conceptual learning -- have affected your mind. Our faith in America is in books, isn”t it

　　 In universities. In science. In conceptual learning. In being reasonable.

　　RW: Do you find that type of learning to be invalid

　　 Or can that also be used properly

　　AS: No. Right. It is…

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