..续本文上一页ffer. That dovetails with this teaching, which is a kind of an acceptance that suffering is the human condition.

　　Pema Chödrön: It is true people fear tonglen practice. Particularly if people have a lot of depression, they fear it is going to be tough to relate with the suffering so directly.

　　I have found that it”s less overwhelming if you start with your own experience of suffering and then generalize to all the other people who are feeling what you do. That gives you a way to work with your pain: instead of feeling like you”re increasing your suffering, you”re making it meaningful. If you”re taught that you should do tonglen only for other people, that”s too big a leap for most people. But if you start with yourself as the reference point and extend out from that, you find that your compassion becomes much more spontaneous and real. You have less fear of the suffering you perceive in the world—yours and other peoples”. It”s a lot about overcoming the fear of suffering.

　　My experience of working with this practice is that it has brought me a moment by moment sense of wellbeing. That”s encouraging to people who are afraid to start the practice—to know that relating directly with your suffering is a doorway to wellbeing for yourself and others, rather than some kind of masochism.

　　Alice Walker: I would say that is also true for me in going to stand where I feel I need to stand. I feel I get to that same place.

　　I also appreciate the teaching on driving all blame into yourself. We need a teaching on how fruitless it is to always blame the other person. In my life I can see places where I have not wanted to take my part of the blame. That”s a losing proposition. There”s no gain in it because you never learn very much about yourself. You don”t own all your parts. There are places in each of us that are quite scary, but you have to make friends with them. You have to really get to know them, to say, hello, there you are again. It”s very helpful to do that.

　　Pema Chödrön: One of the things the Buddha pointed out in his early teaching was that everybody wants happiness or freedom from pain, but the methods human beings habitually use are not in sync with the wish. The methods always end up escalating the pain. For example, someone yells at you and then you yell back and then they yell back and it gets worse and worse. You think the reason not to yell back is because, you know, good people don”t yell back. But the truth is that by not yelling back you”re just getting smart about what”s really going to bring you some happiness.

　　Judy Lief: The lojong slogan says “Drive all blames into one,” that is, yourself. But there are definitely situations where from the conventional viewpoint there are bad guys and good guys, oppressors and oppressed. How do you combine taking the blame yourself with combating oppression or evil that you encounter

　　Alice Walker: Maybe it doesn”t work there. (laughter) Pema why don”t you take that one. (laughter)

　　Pema Chödrön: Well, here would be my question: does it help to have a sense of enemy in trying to end oppression

　　Alice Walker: No.

　　Pema Chödrön: So maybe that”s it.

　　Alice Walker: I think it”s probably about seeing. As Bob Marley said so beautifully, the biggest bully you ever did see was once a tiny baby. That”s true. I mean, I”ve tried that on Ronald Reagan. I even tried that on Richard Nixon, but it didn”t really work that well.

　　But really, when you”re standing face to face with someone who just told you to go to the back of the bus, or someone who has said that women aren”t allowed here, or whatever, what do you do

　　 I don”t know what you do, Pema, but at that moment I always see that they”re really miserable people and they need help. Now, of course, I think …

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