..续本文上一页l;n: Shantideva talks about all the ways that we are willing to hurt ourselves, including suicide. He says, if you”re willing to hurt yourself that much, it”s no wonder you”re willing to hurt other people. It seems to me the verses in the Bodhicaryavatara that discuss this issue are key for the West, because we”re much more into self-degradation than what you call self-cherishing.

　　Dzigar Kongtrül: The use of language in this case is interesting. When we say self-degradation, it sounds like we don”t have much self-importance. But in reality if one were not holding tightly to the self, there would be no reason to feel such aversion to it.

　　Pema Chödrön: Yes, I see self-degradation as one of the main ways that self-importance manifests in the West. You are still “full of yourself,” but you are full of yourself as a negative thing.

　　Dzigar Kongtrül: We come to believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with us. But if you really study, if you really practice, you will find that there”s nothing fundamentally wrong. So you need to commit to a course of study and practice, and until you do that, whether one is in the West or anywhere else, there is going to be the feeling that something is fundamentally wrong with you. When you wish to be happy and free from suffering, and yet your mind is not supporting you, it”s very easy to resort to thinking that there”s something fundamentally wrong with you.

　　Pema Chödrön: When we engage in self-reflection and see how our habitual patterns and actions are not in sync with our intention, we can turn the self-reflection against ourselves. One of the things that I”ve learned from you, Rinpoche, that has been so helpful for me is to see that none of what we seek is permanent. All that we seek is like shifting, impermanent clouds, and behind all that the mind itself is workable. The underlying state of openness of mind has never gone away. It has never been marred by all the ugliness and craziness we”re seeing. That”s the message of the buddhanature teachers, like Maitreya, as you mentioned earlier. That message needs to be sent strongly: when you look at yourself, yes, you see the awfulness, and yes, it”s not comfortable to see it, but it”s passing, it”s impermanent. Our mind is workable. We are not simply stuck with that stuff.

　　Dzigar Kongtrül: That is true. But it is also true that you are not going to get anywhere if you have not done the work. Nobody deserves credit if they haven”t done the work. If you do the hard study and practice, then you see the infinite possibilities of changing the mind. If you just complain about your state of mind, it simply means you”ve never got around to doing the work. So, one of the most important things we can do is inspire people to do the work they need to do to discover their innate possibilities.

　　Pema Chödrön: On the spot, right

　　Dzigar Kongtrül: On the spot, in any given moment, and in an ongoing way in their life. Gathering merit requires continuously applying yourself, in order to reap the positive fruit that you want. The intention to be happy and free from suffering must be supported by the wisdom and skillful means that allow one to work fruitfully with one”s own mind.

　　Pema Chödrön: One of the things I”ve learned from both you and Trungpa Rinpoche is that when we feel pain, it is a moment of truth. Instead of saying something”s wrong, that something bad has happened, we can say, “Oh! I am seeing and feeling very old karmic seeds ripening. Right now is the moment when I could do something different.” At that moment of truth, we could choose to do the habitual thing or we could choose not to sow those same old seeds again. At that very point, we can notice our opportunity to practice, rather than being pr…

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