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QUESTION: In what way would that change them
What will that do, inspire them
JOHN: Mostly people. What”s the big change
To find out that there”s a way is the greatest change. To realize there really is a way through the world. To acknowledge that the world really is a dark wood and very chaotic and is full of these animals jumping out and baring their teeth and it”s full of our own weakness and self-indulgence and getting lost. Yet there really is a trail through the woods. There” really a path. So to acknowledge the truth of the difficulty and that there really is a path, I think, are the greatest treasures. Actually, they”re the first noble truths of Buddhism. That you don”t even need to have learned that to get that that”s a great treasure. When you have a path, people will see that. You don”t have to beat them over the head with it.
8. QUESTION: We”ve talked a little bit about some of the abuses and ethics of the teachers. I tend to be more lax and think that they”re just people.(
) But I think that there is much more difficulty with the ethics of psychotherapists. I”m confronted with a personal problem right now with a friend who”s in therapy and would like to get out and somehow can”t escape because of that closed relationship. I have a personal conundrum of trying to get in there and offer advice without being asked for advice and I don”t know exactly how to do it. But I”m more concerned about that kind of closed group of the therapy session or the group which doesn”t allow--I don”t think it allows as much examination or interaction from the outside as from the inside. Do you have any comments about that
JOHN: Anything can be a cult. Zen can be. Psychotherapy can be. It can be a folie a deux, a folie a infinitely receding series. So, I don”t know. There are many psychotherapists who are manipulative, just like a good many zen senior people who are manipulative. So, I”m not sure. I”m more interested in healing zen than in healing psychotherapy, I suppose, is what you ask brings up for me. What I”m interested in--Michael and I were talking today about that very question, what”s the concept of redemption. Spiritual leaders have screwed up in some way. We”re being very dualistic about the way we”ve handled this. We”ve either thrown the bastards out or abused them, reviled them for years, or denied that there was a problem. Somehow neither of those is quite right, is it
But people who have harmed us can also have given us a great deal. People who have wounded us mend our hearts in some ways. Something better needs to be done here. We need to hold that idea and stop abusing people, but also look at what is true and what will really work, what do we want. So I”m not looking at that from the point of view of the student. I never really felt--I felt very pissed off with my spiritual teachers, but never felt that they ever really did any bad ethically or morals. I think anybody who”s not hated their spiritual teacher with a passion hasn”t really walked the spiritual path, at some stage. Anybody who hasn”t walked through that hatred, hasn”t walked it either. Something comes up where you”ve just got to find your own way in some way. I”m meandering. I think we have to hold these two things together. People really do screw up and we can”t say, "Oh well, boys will be boys." On the other hand, you can”t say, "Oh, they”re a demon. Let”s cast them out and purify the tradition," because then you just produce another demon.
With your friend, I don”t know. My friends are very recalcitrant to my wisdom as I am to theirs. All I can do is love them and hope they don”t damage themselves too much.
9. QUESTION: I was wondering why you talk--you said at one point about the…
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