..續本文上一頁view enormously and then we let even that go and we don”t hang onto that. And the point of view, I think--there are consequences. Joy is a consequence of a true enlightenment experience. Compassion seems to be a consequence. You can”t help yourself. Compassion”s not a willed thing. It”s a sort of involuntary, genetically programmed twitch or something, emerging with people. The compassion just comes.
Conceptually, the Hua-yen (Jap. Kegon) philosophy, which was a great philosophy that died out because it was too complicated, really, I think, but very brilliant and interesting, tried to describe the philosophy of what you see under that change. Usually in zen we give operational definitions. We say, "Do this and then tell me what you see," rather than, "What you will see is this." Because people get fixated on what their idea of what those words are and it”s very hard then. But typically, people start to see the subject-object barrier breaks down. You see that you are the universe and the universe is you, for example. You meet the people of the tradition. You understand what they were talking about.
Is that your question
QUESTION: Sort of.
JOHN: It”s too vague, isn”t it, for you
QUESTION: Yes.
JOHN: Well, what would you like
Ask me a very specific question.
QUESTION: Well, when you said, `you are the universe and the universe is you,” that certainly that would have some affect on behavior. I just want to go back to something that you said about behavior and that this black thing might just grab you. I was thinking more in terms about being consciously aware of what one does.
JOHN: Yes. Well, I think the things is how much of container is there. I think character is in some sense a container for insight. Soul is the container for spirit in the same way. If we”ve done a lot of work and we”re already patient and we”ve worked with our own fallibility some and we”re humble and we have integrity and we”re honest about our weaknesses, then there”s a much better container there. The insight will come in and won”t tear us up too much. We”ll be happy and compassionate and people will probably think we”re a little bit better in our lives. People around us will notice the difference and we might change our career paths or something, but generally I value steadiness a lot. Being a child of the sixties, I suppose. In spiritual training putting one foot after the other and accepting the darkness when it”s here is very important. Then the light comes. I think there”s a trust and a patience in that. That we don”t believe the propaganda from the ministry of the mood when it comes. We”re patient and we wait for things that are hard to pass because we know underneath that there”s a knowledge. We don”t have to trust so much because we know. That”s for me the fine difference. But then we still have to do that soul work I described, the character work. Actually to have a good eye and a poor character is a horrible thing, I think. Terrible thing. Torment really. And I think in the tradition when I look back, I can see who were in that dilemma.
3. QUESTIONER: First, I want to see if I”m understanding what your saying. What you”re saying is that you have the enlightenment experience, and there”s that part of it. Then there”s also the human being and all the faults of the human being and everything else. What I”m wondering, it seems like the main thing people are trying to get when they”re looking for enlightenment is the enlightenment experience. From what I understand that you say, you”re saying that there”s more to it than that. There”s more that needs to be done. I”m just wondering what would you say the purpose of enlightenment is. What would you say the goal is for people that . . .
JOHN: Well, the purpose of enlightenment is to forget that…
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