July 27 1965 2nd Talk

　　Originally offered: July 27th, 1965 | Modified October 27th, 2009 by Shunryu Suzuki Roshi

　　SR0002

　　Shunryū Suzuki-rōshi

　　6 PM SESSHIN LECTURE

　　Tuesday, July 27, 1965

　　Soko-ji Temple, San Francisco

　　Listen to this talk: Suzuki-roshi 65-07-27 2nd Talk

　　In our way of Zen, we emphasize the way-seeking mind—way-seeking mind. This is, in another word, bodhisattva-mind or way-seeking mind. In Zen, people say “way it is” or “to observe everything as it is.” But “the way as it is” or “to observe things as they are” will not be the same what you mean by that. I don”t know what—how do you understand “to observe everything as it is.” I find out there are big misunderstanding in your understanding of “way it is” or “to observe things as it is.”

　　We mean—I think if I say “to see things as it is” means to observe things in rather scientific way or materialistic way. In your philosophy, there is two ways of—you say “things as it is” and “things as it should be.” Now this is two contradictory—not “contradictory,” but this is two antonymy.[1] Things do not exist “as it should be.” And you do not observe “things as it is.” And you observe things your own way. You observe things “as it should [laughs]—as it should not be” or, you know, you thinks “there is flower.” But actual flower is changing. So—and yet you see the flower—”there is flower, and this flower is always like this.” This is, perhaps, your understanding of flower. But actually the flower is changing. When you see something in scientific way, actually, you do not see “things as it is.” And you knows—and yet you know what is true and what is not true. But you like—you [are] apt to—you [are] apt to see things as it—”as it should not be.”

　　This—in this point, there is big mistake. So when we say “to observe things as it is” means “to see things as it should be” [laughs]. For you, this is opposite, you know. For you, way should—we say—when we say “to observe things as it is” means “to observe things as it should be.” Do you understand

　　 In your—for you, “as it should be” and “as it is” is quite different. “As it should be” means “it is not so, but it should be so.” It means some—in this case, you have some moral—morality, or you want to be religious, or you want to be moral. But human being is not so. We are not always moral. Or we are not always religious. So we should be more moral, or we should be more religious. “This is way it should be.” And when you are not religious, when you are not good, that is how you are. So “way it should be” is—means morality or religion. And “way as it is” is science.

　　But for us, “things as it is” is morality, not science—is morality—”things as it is.” So to observe “things as it is” means to—to be moral and to be religious. It”s what I mean by “way it should be.” [Laughs.] So statement is same, but what we mean is opposite, not same.

　　When you take religious viewpoint, everything become opposite [laughs], you know. You are talking same thing from this scientific standpoint, and we are talking from religious standpoint. So same statements makes big difference. And this misunderstanding—the misunderstanding you have about Zen, I think—when we say:

　　Zen, oh, Zen is wonderful [laughs]. Whatever you do, that is Zen [laughing]. Even though you are doing something wrong, that is Zen. Whatever you do is Zen. That is why I like Zen.

　　[Laughs, laughter.] This kind of misunderstanding I think you will have about Zen. But what we actually mean is quite opposite.

　　And way-seeking mind—what I”m going to talk just now is the problem of to choose one—one of the two: good or bad. Refrainings from bad to take good is way-seeking mind, not from moral viewpoint but from religious viewpoint. When we take relig…

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